THE RIGOROUS INTERVIEW - PART TWO
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Welcome to the second part of yer old pal Jerky's interview with Rigorous Intuition author Jeff Wells. The first part can be found HERE. - YOPJ
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Jerky: I've found that a lot of conservatives don't know exactly how occultish a lot of right-wing thinkers really are. Leo Strauss was basically a numerologist, among other things. He had all these weird theories about "close" reading, and how when you read the works of Machiavelli for instance, when you read it one way, it says something completely different than if you subject it to a Straussian analysis, where you're looking for mistakes made on purpose, you're looking for the placement of words… it's very much like magical thinking. With Eric Voegelin, he developed this theory that "gnosis" is what's wrong with the world. The idea that we can know ourselves, that we can know our nature, and thus perfect or better ourselves, inevitably leads to disaster. That's his contention. And these guys are considered important thinkers on the right.
Jeff Wells: I think a lot of people, both left and right, have just a very superficial understanding of the Big Themes. They think about things mostly in materialistic terms. And I don't want to be snobbish about it, because mostly those people just don't have the time to devote to it, and for the time that they devote to it, this is what they see.
JLB: Like the people who say "Iraq's all about oil."
JW: Yeah. And you know, there's really so many layers to it, even for the neocons… Something I've been thinking lately about how people look at the neocons and think these are the guys behind it. But I don't think so. I think they're being set up somehow, and that there's a group above and beyond them who've been there much longer, and who… like Maurice Strong, for instance, the Rockefellers and all that. So I think that there are many different agendas, and a lot of people who get into the conspiracy stuff think that there must be One Big Conspiracy. But I think there are competing agendas, and, you know, we're just guys in a bar, talking about it. Ascribing all this stuff to one secret team or one cabal is…
JLB: I can't remember who it was that said all of history was the chronicle of combat between conspiracies; the Conspiracy Theory of History. It's just the way the world works; people who want to rule or run things, or want things to become a certain way, act on that will and bump up against other people and groups with similar aspirations.
JW: Yeah. So I think the neocons, they have an agenda, but I think they're being set up to fail, in a way. Iraq is certainly indicative of that. But I think the bigger picture is the failure of America. I think there are those, the Globalists, for whom that's part of the picture. It's like, getting into the 2012 stuff, you know, maybe nothing will happen, but…
JLB: I remember vividly growing up in the 80's when it was certain, damn close to a sure thing, that we weren't going to see 2001. Jesus was coming back in 2000. And, well… here we are in 2005. So, the 2012 thing, I'm interested in, like you are, as a possible artificial, planned Armageddon, a secular Apocalypse.
JW: Yeah, along those lines… thinking of the Project Merlin stuff, you know, these guys who are futurists and programmers, and they're all working at the Pentagon, and they're saying wild things like that at the end of 2005, they were seeing… well, they couldn't see exactly what was coming, but it would be either a comet impact, or a UFO invasion. And these guys, you know, one of them is a Star Wars physicist. And the Pentagon and Fox News are their clients. And they've also said something like two thirds of humanity in the years leading up to 2012 would experience great activity that could be either a plague or, you know, some great war. So, you know, I'm not saying… I'm just saying it's something to watch.
JLB: So these things, if they happen, could be engineered, as well.
JW: I think it would be, yes. You know, the German army, during the first World War, projected images of the Virgin Mary on clouds. So it's not unheard of. And, you know, looking at Fatima…
JLB: That would be some long range planning!
JW: Yeah. But I think there's something happening there.
JLB: And Ratzinger now is Pope, and he's the guy who engineered the whole "the Third Prophecy of Fatima was just that someone would take a shot at the Pope! Nothing to see here! Move along!"
JW: Yeah. So I've been looking at these Mary apparitions in a different way, because I'm not Catholic, and they haven't really meant anything to me. When I was an evangelical, I would say that's just mass delusion, or, you know… the Devil. But now I'm thinking, I still don't know what's going on. But there's something, and it's a similar phenomena, religiously, to UFO stuff. I forget the name of the town, but in Spain, in the early 60's, there was an apparition as well, in which they were accompanied with the vision of an eye in a triangle and what the children said was Oriental writing. And these apparitions haven't been embraced by the Church as Fatima has, but Father Malachy Martin, a conservative Catholic, believed they were authentic.
JLB: Are you ever… do you ever get spooked?
JW: Yeah, sure.
JLB: Like, for your own safety?
JW: Oh. Well, I'm more careful, I guess, than I used to be. I'm sort of aware of my surroundings more. And, you know, I'm not really paranoid about it, because there are lots of people who are taking bigger risks than I am. But the biggest spooks in this regard are seeing who visits the site. I get hits from NASA and the Centers for Disease Control, so you just wonder… I mean, you don't know who they are, you know? I was getting the Executive Office of the Governor of Florida. So, I don't know if Jeb Bush or-
JLB: It's Google, man! And that can be even spookier, because you think to yourself, what could somebody at the CDC be Googling that would lead them to you? You know… dead microbiologists?
JW: Well, I can see by the stats-counter who's reaching me by Google, and the searches they use. And it's funny, because I get lots of hits from the search term "World's Biggest Dick", because of a piece I wrote on Dick Cheney.
JLB: So you get people who won't be satisfied by just a plain old big dick, they're looking for the world's biggest dick, and they end up at Rigorous Intuition? That's hilarious.
JW: Yeah. And also, getting my firewall hit by the US military, that's pretty wild. I don't know how common that is. I'm sure it's pretty common. I mean, the Canadian Department of Fisheries pings us, so you never know. It could just be some guy working there.
JLB: I think in that case, yeah.
JW: One of the most interesting things is hearing from Ritual Abuse survivors. Hearing these things, and getting these e-mails and corresponding, it really makes it all much more immediate.
JLB: Who do you find more credible, UFO abductees or Ritual Abuse survivors? Because some of their stories are just wild and wacky.
JW: Yeah. Well, I think in some ways it's the same thing, because with the UFO abductions, sometimes the purpose is to be absurd. And sometimes, the interaction with these characters, whether they be aliens or whatnot, it seems to be confusion. So it gives sort of an absurd gloss to the event that will make it less credible. So yeah, I mean, I don't believe everything everybody says. I think you have to… that you can't do that. But also I think you have to treat the people who make these claims with respect, because something has obviously happened to certain among them. The nature of it may not be clear, and it may not be exactly what they think it is. Sometimes it definitely isn't. But I think, like, with Kathy O'Brien, the Trance Formation stuff, she's telling a story that is partially true, but I also think there's a lot of disinformation there. You know, her partner, Mark Phillips, claims to be a CIA guy, who used to be a programmer. So definitely, these vulnerable women attract characters like this, and sometimes they're attracted for the wrong reasons, like it's another level of control. One thing that's interesting about Kathleen Sullivan, one of the survivors, she's talked about how when she was coming out with her story, she was advised to go tell her story to O'Brien and Phillips. And Phillips heard her story and he said that she was just deluded, that basically nothing happened to her. And he would do that with everybody that she knew. And I think that could have been an instance of putting… of dismissing the more credible accounts. But I think something did happen to her, and it might have happened to her in much the way she accounts for it. It's like getting into this whole Reptilian stuff.
JLB: Again, clearly bogus information being put out there to cloud the truth.
JW: Yeah. I mean, look at the whole false memory thing. These guys, like Martin Orne, was a CIA doctor. He was one of the founders of the false memory movement, and he'd been involved in mind control research. And so now, you know, all you have to say is "McMartin" and the story goes away.
JLB: It seems to me, also, that the right is really good at setting up false advocacy groups and what they call Astroturf now, fake grass roots that are basically funded by higher ups for nefarious reasons that run counter to the superficial purpose of the organization. Like environmental groups that do nothing but debunk global warming, and of course the foundations that fund such so-called liberal magazines as The New Republic and The Nation.
JW: Well, yeah. Of course you would want to control the opposition, so you'd set these things up to limit the parameters of discourse.
JLB: What do you think lies ahead in the near future for American politics?
JW: I think the strangeness will just increase. It doesn't seem like there's a check on it anymore. So, you know, people who are paying attention will just be that much more astonished by it. I think a lot of people will opt to tune it out.
JLB: That's happening now.
JW: Yeah. I'm frustrated, perpetually, by Democrats who say "if they steal another one, I'm moving to Canada." Well, they were saying that before the last election, and, you know… the truth is so ugly and so big now that it really encourages people to just tune out. So it's a funny thing for me, because I'm feeling now the weight of responsibility in a way, because people are reading me. And I don't want to lead people to despair. But I also want to be intellectually honest about the prospects, and they're not good. And I really don't think… I think we have… it's kind of like, save yourselves, you know?
JLB: Like Mike Ruppert says.
JW: Yeah. And I think he's been really ripped for that. There are a lot of activists who are really disappointed in him, and I've been getting a lot of guff too. But, you know, the truth doesn't serve us all that well. I don't know what the Big Picture answer is, but I think the Little Picture is, you know, just find a safe place. I think there's going to be Hell to pay. So I don't want to give people false hope, but I don't want to trigger mass suicides, either.
JLB: It seems as though reality itself is becoming unmoored from information. Like the Downing Street memo. Couldn't be more clear what it insinuates, what it says, what it means. And yet, people are like "meh". It's like the Suskind story in the New York Times, where an administration official said "we create reality now, you just report on it." It's like the bragging of a modern magician.
JW: And even the whole Guckert thing in the White House, even if you don't go as far as the Gosch stuff, you know… this was a male prostitute that had unrivaled access to the White House. And yet, there's nothing there. Part of that is that the media have been so compromised-
JLB: And cowed. They're so afraid of being accused of being liberals, traitors, etc.
JW: Yeah, well, look at Newsweek. They retracted. So, no. I don't have happy thoughts about the future.
JLB: And the Powers That Be are very good at framing issues and marginalizing people. Look at Michael Moore. You know, he is what he is. Grew up a working class guy, and he's a smart-ass, you know? And I don't think he's got the Big Picture down particularly well, but he speaks the truth as he sees it, and a lot of people agree with him. And just for that, he's portrayed as the second or third most hated human being, you know... after Saddam and Osama, it's Michael Moore. To the point where, on January 6th, which was a very bad day, when Congress met and there was an official objection to the certification of the vote in Ohio, and there was a debate, I think a dozen or so Republicans participated in the Congressional debate, and half of them mentioned Michael Moore. They said things like "this is just a Michael Moore conspiracy theory" and accused the Democrats of being part of "Michael Moore's America", things like that. Now, can you imagine being Michael Moore and listening to that? He makes a couple of movies and speaks the truth as he sees it, and now half the Republicans taking part in this historic debate -- which was completely ignored by the media -- and their entire argument is a vilification of Michael Moore. Meanwhile, Democrats are listing fraud after fraud after fraud that was perpetuated by Blackwell and all the reprehensible things he had done, all these problems, and they would just come back and say "Fuck you! Michael Moore! MICHAEL MOORE!!!" And, well… they won. But, you know, I think more and more people are starting to wonder how come, in the fifty year history of Presidential exit polls, never before have these polls been outside the margin of error. Except for this year, when they were outside the margin of error in six states, all swing states, and all in Bush's favor. You've even got Dick Morris writing an op-ed piece in which he admits that this kind of thing never happens, only to come to the conclusion that it must have been the result of some organized conspiracy on the part of thousands of liberal and leftist poll workers! So, what do you think's going to become of that growing undercurrent, the people who know something is terribly wrong?
JW: Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, some people who've come to this awareness, they come to know that it doesn't really make any difference. And part of my agony, in some ways, of writing this stuff, is, you know, am I just depressing people? What do I have to offer? I don't have any answers, or any hope, particularly, to give to people. So what's the point of writing this stuff? Why not just carry on in ignorance? I can really appreciate why people would want to do that.
JLB: It's the Chinese curse thing.
JW: Yeah, as I've said, you know, it's the curse of interesting times, but at least they're interesting. And for the people who want to follow this, it is.
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Easy, folks... we're almost done! Join us again tomorrow for the conclusion of yer old pal Jerky's interview with Rigorous Interview author Jeff Wells. - YOPJ
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Send all Jokes, Letters and other stuff to Jerky:
jerkyleboeuf@gmail.com
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